[Menvi-discuss] Some ideas for software tools

Thu Aug 8 14:37:19 UTC 2013

Hello,
This conversation has calmed down a bit, thank goodness!

I love Braille and use it most of the time from regular text to
complicated music. Some jobs and leisure activities enable you to pick
and choose whether you listen to, or read, your books. I narrate audio
books and I'm a radio presenter. For both these jobs, I need to read
aloud quickly and proficiently. Listening is not a practicale, or
enjoyable, option for me!

Very best wishes,
Sandra.

On 8/8/13, Bettie & Bill Downing <bnbdowning70 at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> You said it very well and the big thing when you read yourself is control.
> Other people emphasize things in the text that you might not.
>
>
> On Aug 7, 2013, at 6:23 PM, Kaiti Shelton wrote:
>
>> Brandon,
>>
>> I missed your last email when I addressed the music book issue before.
>> I have to agree with Lina and others; print and braille are not as
>> inefficient as you think.  I do know of sighted people who read
>> printed books and get very vivid images or feelings in their head, the
>> same type you describe getting out of human readers.  I get these
>> feelings too, as well as images and thoughts of what characters sound
>> like in conversation when I read books in Braille.  Reading Gone With
>> the Wind was incredible because the way Margret Mitchell writes is
>> fantastic, so I had very clear and precise ideas of what Scarlett and
>> Rhett Butler looked like, how they sounded when they talked to each
>> other, even what they might have been feeling.  Reading print or
>> braille isn't as impersonal or inferior as you think, ask any English
>> major on your campus and I think they'll tell you otherwise, (also
>> coming from having shared a room with a very studious English major
>> last year).  In fact, speaking for myself I miss the emotion of a book
>> entirely when I listen to a human reader, and it honestly does put me
>> to sleep to the point where I would  wake up several chapters later
>> and had to backtrack at times to find where I lost my place.  When
>> reading braille I can get into the character's heads, empathize with
>> them, and am in control of how I think of them.
>>
>> On 8/7/13, Kaiti Shelton <crazy4clarinet104 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Marc,
>>>
>>> Interesting that you are going to teach at UNC.  I happen to know that
>>> I am Dr. Rush's first blind student and he came to Dayton before I
>>> did, so we've really developed our own methods based on the
>>> pre-existing knowledge I had of the braille music code and the Dancing
>>> Dots software that I was familiar with and U of Dayton's music
>>> department purchased.  I will send him this thread along with your
>>> email address in order to facilitate further discussion.
>>>
>>> Now that I think back on the system we use at UD in comparrison to
>>> what I did in my high school class, things are already starting to get
>>> better.  I hope that the trend will continue to improve from flipping
>>> back and forth between embossed braille music notation to a computer
>>> to input an exercise before doing it, to getting pre-made exercise
>>> files and at least doing them all on the computer flipping between
>>> documents and programs, to having one large file with accessible text
>>> and music notation capabilities will continue to that point.
>>>
>>> Thinking about it further, my sighted classmates use an online theory
>>> book designed by Dr. Phil Magnuson also of the University of Dayton.
>>> The book has the text the students are to read as well as images of
>>> music that they are to analyse.  Sometimes students are asked to print
>>> out a page from the online textbook to bring to class for group
>>> analysis or discussion, or to complete it and turn it in as homework.
>>> It sounds like that sort of platform might be workable as well, if
>>> there were a way for college/university disability services to take
>>> the text of the books and edit them as they normally would, but paste
>>> them in text boxes of this huge file or online program.  Then the
>>> music professors, (or hired music majors if the music department
>>> wishes to take that route) could input the music portions.  It could
>>> be that simple.
>>>
>>> As for reading textbooks, doing music homework, as well as leisurely
>>> reading, I have this to add.  I am a steadfast supporter of not just
>>> braille literacy, but it's use whenever possible.  I do all my
>>> leisurely reading in braille because I feel like it is not enough to
>>> be braille literate; braille literacy means nothing if it isn't used,
>>> and personally since I was lucky to receive braille instruction I feel
>>> I should take advantage of the opportunity I have.  However, when
>>> reading textbooks for college I get them in text files from my
>>> university disability services.  I put all my textbook files on an SD
>>> card; sometimes, like when I'm doing music homework and it's easier, I
>>> read the book as I'm doing the homework with my screenreader.  If it's
>>> something for English or History, or a subject I am just interested in
>>> and like to read about, I will pop the card into my notetaker and read
>>> it on the display.  Reading on the computer has its advantages, as I
>>> think my JAWS and NVDA talk much faster than I could even dream of
>>> reading, (and I'm not slow), and I find I still get that information.
>>> I have not been happy with the quality of Learning ally books, but
>>> then again I tend to steer away from human-read audio at all as I have
>>> the unfortunate tendency to be put to sleep.  I think that using
>>> another human as a reader would make the process of reading a textbook
>>> slower even than if you were reading yourself, as you don't have to
>>> rely on someone else's speaking rate and could at least read at your
>>> own pace, (assuming you're a fluent braille reader).  In the end
>>> though, everyone has different preferences and things that can help
>>> them learn better than others.  I am guilty of using Lime to play my
>>> exercises before I complete them and afterwards as well, so that
>>> itself isn't that different from having another midi recording dropped
>>> into a Learning Ally book.  Even if I don't agree with it or like
>>> Learning Ally in the sense that it signifies to me the easy way out of
>>> reading braille, in terms of the music I don't think it's all bad.
>>>
>>> On 8/7/13, Chris Smart <csmart8 at cogeco.ca> wrote:
>>>> hahahaha. I knew something like that would happen in this discussion!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At 06:01 PM 8/7/2013, you wrote:
>>>>> Assumptions!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 7, 2013, at 4:55 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> wow, thanks for all of those asumptions. I'm glad what you do
>>>>> works for you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 05:12 PM 8/7/2013, you wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>> I have been telling sighted people for years that they need to
>>>>> stop
>>>>>>> reading the very inefficient written language and move to
>>>>> listening to
>>>>>>> Voice Over or even better screen readers, but I know a total of 0
>>>>>>> sighted people who have actually opened a book and listened to
>>>>> a whole
>>>>>>> book all the way through when it is not a human reading. They have
>>>>>>> never gotten to the point to where the words are going by so
>>>>> fast that
>>>>>>> reading becomes something not unlike a movie with the most vivid
>>>>>>> pictures, smells and sounds scrolling through their mind.
>>>>>>> I have however read print, Braille, IPA and many of their
>>>>> variants and
>>>>>>> believe reading has its place, but not in books or computers.
>>>>> Labels
>>>>>>> yes, music yes, signs perhaps but less so now we are coming
>>>>> out with
>>>>>>> computerized cars, name tags yes, labels yes. But not much
>>>>> more than
>>>>>>> that. And this ridiculous spelling words where ridiculous can be
>>>>>>> pronounced 5 different ways is so impractical it makes me
>>>>> cringe! IPA
>>>>>>> and Italian have the idea right.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But in music textbooks the amount of musical examples is crazy
>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> examples are really short and mostly simple. This is an escape
>>>>> tone,
>>>>>>> this is a passing tone... Just hearing the examples would be like
>>>>>>> someone looking at a picture of a face rather than seeing the
>>>>> person's
>>>>>>> face in real life. They both have their advantages and
>>>>> disadvantages,
>>>>>>> but it is a lot easier to be reading a description of a
>>>>> person's face
>>>>>>> and just look at a picture rather than read a description and
>>>>> see the
>>>>>>> real thing.
>>>>>>> I would jump at the opportunity to have sound inserts in books
>>>>> and it
>>>>>>> would most certainly make me want to read my theory textbooks.
>>>>> (read
>>>>>>> to me means the interpretation of sensory retrieved data into my
>>>>>>> mind). I can prove that learning most things in school by ear
>>>>> works
>>>>>>> because I graduated high school with a 4.2 GPA and carry a
>>>>> 3.98 GPA in
>>>>>>> college, so it is a moot point on what medium one inputs data into
>>>>>>> their mind.
>>>>>>> If I really wanted to, I could memorize my song from hearing it in
>>>>>>> words, but it would be very annoying and time consuming.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/7/13, Marc Sabatella <marc at outsideshore.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2013, at 12:58 PM, Leena Dawes
>>>>> <leena.salim at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exactly. However, even sighted people will make the
>>>>> distinction. "Do
>>>>>>>>> you listen to books on tape?" is a common question as
>>>>> opposed to "Do
>>>>>>>>> you read books on tape?" This isn't reading because
>>>>> spelling, grammar,
>>>>>>>>> and other important aspects of literacy aren't learned.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FWIW, as a sighted person, I'd agree that there is something
>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>> distinction between reading a book versus hearing it read on
>>>>> tape, but I'd
>>>>>>>> also say this is a *very* different distinction than the one
>>>>> that exists
>>>>>>>> between listening to music and reading it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whether you read a book or hear it read on tape, you are
>>>>> getting essentially
>>>>>>>> the same information out of it: the actual contents of the
>>>>> book.  No one
>>>>>>>> then expects you to "perform" that book - to read it
>>>>> yourself later.  And
>>>>>>>> even if they did, I'd argue that there would be very little
>>>>> difference
>>>>>>>> between learning to perform a book by reading it versus
>>>>> learning it by
>>>>>>>> listening to it.  Assuming it was being read accurately,
>>>>> you'd still learn
>>>>>>>> the exact same sequence of words, regardless of how complex
>>>>> the book was.  A
>>>>>>>> book is essentially just a libear stream of words, and while
>>>>> maybe you
>>>>>>>> wouldnt be sure of the location of every last comma, in
>>>>> practice that is
>>>>>>>> normally justnnot that relevant - the comma is an aid to
>>>>> understanding, but
>>>>>>>> that understanding would come just as easily from a tood
>>>>> reading.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But in the case of music, I don't care how good your ears
>>>>> are - you are
>>>>>>>> *not* likely to learn every single note of that piece just
>>>>> by listening to
>>>>>>>> it.  So your eventual performance of it will be an
>>>>> approximation.  Sure, for
>>>>>>>> sufficiently simple pieces, the approximation might be
>>>>> essentially perfect
>>>>>>>> (depending on how accurate the recorded performance you
>>>>> learned from was),
>>>>>>>> but you'd never know to what extent things like dynamics and
>>>>> other
>>>>>>>> interpretive things were just accidents of how that
>>>>> performer played it
>>>>>>>> versus what the composer actually specified.  And yes, for
>>>>> pop music or jazz
>>>>>>>> or other music that is not normally fully notated in the
>>>>> first case, then
>>>>>>>> even reading the music will mean you are learning one arranger's
>>>>>>>> interpretation of the song rather than the actual essence of
>>>>> the song, which
>>>>>>>> might indeed be better learned by ear.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Still, there exists a huge amount of music for which
>>>>> lisening to it does not
>>>>>>>> convey nearly the same level of information as reading it,
>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> perspective of allowing you to fully understand or reproduce
>>>>> it.  So if
>>>>>>>> someone says "listening is a form of reading", I'd say yes,
>>>>> but only to a
>>>>>>>> certain extent.  It might tell you everything you need to
>>>>> know about
>>>>>>>> extraordinarily simple pieces, or most of what you need to
>>>>> know about
>>>>>>>> somewhat more complex pieces, but at some point it is
>>>>> guaranteed to fall
>>>>>>>> short.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Marc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please visit www.menvi.org/donate.html  to make a voluntary
>>>>> contribution to
>>>>>>>> MENVIs work.
>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for subscribing to MENVI.  Should you wish to
>>>>> unsubscribe, change
>>>>>>>> your delivery, or set any other options available to you,
>>>>> please view the
>>>>>>>> list information page below.  Should you have any questions,
>>>>> please contact
>>>>>>>> the owner of the list.
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Menvi-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> Menvi-discuss at menvi.org
>>>>>>>> http://menvi.org/mailman/listinfo/menvi-discuss_menvi.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please visit www.menvi.org/donate.html  to make a voluntary
>>>>> contribution to MENVIs work.
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for subscribing to MENVI.  Should you wish to
>>>>> unsubscribe, change your delivery, or set any other options
>>>>> available to you, please view the list information page
>>>>> below.  Should you have any questions, please contact the owner
>>>>> of the list.
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Menvi-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> Menvi-discuss at menvi.org
>>>>>>> http://menvi.org/mailman/listinfo/menvi-discuss_menvi.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> CTS MASTERING, affordable and professional mixing and
>>>>> mastering: http://www.ctsmastering.com
>>>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/CTSMASTERING
>>>>>> BLOG: www.ctsmastering.com/blog
>>>>>> Linked In: http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/chris-smart/46/824/536
>>>>>> Dropbox, Share Files Easily: http://db.tt/bQ2GuIt
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please visit www.menvi.org/donate.html  to make a voluntary
>>>>> contribution to MENVIs work.
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for subscribing to MENVI.  Should you wish to
>>>>> unsubscribe, change your delivery, or set any other options
>>>>> available to you, please view the list information page
>>>>> below.  Should you have any questions, please contact the owner
>>>>> of the list.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Menvi-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> Menvi-discuss at menvi.org
>>>>>> http://menvi.org/mailman/listinfo/menvi-discuss_menvi.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please visit www.menvi.org/donate.html  to make a voluntary
>>>>> contribution to MENVIs work.
>>>>> -
>>>>> ---------
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for subscribing to MENVI.  Should you wish to
>>>>> unsubscribe, change your delivery, or set any other options
>>>>> available to you, please view the list information page
>>>>> below.  Should you have any questions, please contact the owner of
>>>>> the list.
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Menvi-discuss mailing list
>>>>> Menvi-discuss at menvi.org
>>>>> http://menvi.org/mailman/listinfo/menvi-discuss_menvi.org
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>>> CTS MASTERING, affordable and professional mixing and mastering:
>>>> http://www.ctsmastering.com
>>>> Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/CTSMASTERING
>>>> BLOG: www.ctsmastering.com/blog
>>>> Linked In: http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/chris-smart/46/824/536
>>>> Dropbox, Share Files Easily: http://db.tt/bQ2GuIt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please visit www.menvi.org/donate.html  to make a voluntary
>>>> contribution
>>>> to
>>>> MENVIs work.
>>>> -
>>>> ---------
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for subscribing to MENVI.  Should you wish to unsubscribe,
>>>> change
>>>> your delivery, or set any other options available to you, please view
>>>> the
>>>> list information page below.  Should you have any questions, please
>>>> contact
>>>> the owner of the list.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Menvi-discuss mailing list
>>>> Menvi-discuss at menvi.org
>>>> http://menvi.org/mailman/listinfo/menvi-discuss_menvi.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Kaiti
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kaiti
>>
>> Please visit www.menvi.org/donate.html  to make a voluntary contribution
>> to MENVIs work.
>> -
>> ---------
>>
>> Thank you for subscribing to MENVI.  Should you wish to unsubscribe,
>> change your delivery, or set any other options available to you, please
>> view the list information page below.  Should you have any questions,
>> please contact the owner of the list.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Menvi-discuss mailing list
>> Menvi-discuss at menvi.org
>> http://menvi.org/mailman/listinfo/menvi-discuss_menvi.org
>
>
> Please visit www.menvi.org/donate.html  to make a voluntary contribution to
> MENVIs work.
> -
> ---------
>
> Thank you for subscribing to MENVI.  Should you wish to unsubscribe, change
> your delivery, or set any other options available to you, please view the
> list information page below.  Should you have any questions, please contact
> the owner of the list.
> _______________________________________________
> Menvi-discuss mailing list
> Menvi-discuss at menvi.org
> http://menvi.org/mailman/listinfo/menvi-discuss_menvi.org
>

-- 
Soprano Singer
 www.sandragayer.com

Broadcast Presenter

www.insightradio.co.uk/music-box.html