[Menvi-discuss] Some ideas for software tools

Wed Aug 7 13:49:15 UTC 2013

When one goes to get a job there are lots of things that must be read and many things that must be written.

On Aug 7, 2013, at 8:45 AM, Sonja Biggs wrote:

> For some, listening is the best form of reading. 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Aug 7, 2013, at 6:38 AM, Bettie & Bill Downing <bnbdowning70 at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> If one cannot READ one is illiterate.
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 6, 2013, at 9:36 PM, Brandon Keith Biggs wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> This is fantastic that someone is so into creating programs to help
>>> make music more accessible!
>>> Frankly, I see most of our worries being fixed by android or IOs devices.
>>> I never want to read a book on my computer because it is just too much
>>> sitting down and reading a text book. Perhaps if the book is talking
>>> about a score it would be nice to read it in lime, but only for big
>>> scores would I see myself wanting to sit down and arrow through the
>>> score.
>>> I currently have my books recorded by Learning Allie. What they do is
>>> have someone read the book and play the examples and describe the
>>> notation. I then put the books on one of my little PDAs. This is the
>>> best way of reading text books that I have found.
>>> What I could see working is if a musical example can be read in a text
>>> book on an IPhone using Voice Over, but if I didn't want to stop and
>>> really dissect the piece it would just read with VO and continue after
>>> the piece was finished. I think if Kindle, Ibooks or Blio got on to
>>> this it would be popular among everyone. It would be the equivalent of
>>> comicbooks but with sound or video.
>>> I know this is not what you were talking about, but I would rather
>>> listen to a learning Allie book, even if a human is reading it, than
>>> sit at my computer.
>>> 
>>> As for the accessible free notation program:
>>> Just use python addons to NVDA to make the score software accessible.
>>> I don't know why people haven't changed completely over to NVDA yet.
>>> But I don't think making people download NVDA and Muse score to
>>> produce music would be too much to ask.
>>> Lime does not work with NVDA and that is the only reason why I still
>>> have Jaws running some of the time.
>>> In fact, there is a module in Python that makes all python supported
>>> systems with a screen reader speak the text, so you wouldn't need to
>>> use NVDA addons... But I know nothing about Muse score and can't tell
>>> you what would be possible there.
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> 
>>> On 8/6/13, Dale Lieser <dale.lieser at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Mar,
>>>> 
>>>> I appreciate your being willing to field emails directly to you. I trust
>>>> that a discussion of these issues can remain open for all of us to
>>>> participate, without having to word what someone else might have addressed
>>>> privately, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> Dale
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Menvi-discuss [mailto:menvi-discuss-bounces at menvi.org] On Behalf Of
>>>> Marc Sabatella
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2013 4:37 PM
>>>> To: This is for discussing music and braille literacy
>>>> Subject: Re: [Menvi-discuss] Some ideas for software tools
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for all the comments thus far! I am glad to see the interest in
>>>> this topic.  I'm like to address some of the specific comments:
>>>> 
>>>> Stephanie: yes, cross-platform support is important.  MuseScore runs on
>>>> WIndows, Mac, and Linux, so that's good - and indeed an important reason
>>>> why that work should go forward despite the existence of other
>>>> accessible notation programs.  My hope is that all the other tools that
>>>> get developed as part of this project would also be cross platform.
>>>> i-devices are  important to many musicians as well, I agree, but I have
>>>> no insight into the accessibility issues involved.  Would love to hear
>>>> more about what Symphony has in mind and how it might fit in with
>>>> everything else.  I'm treating MusicXML as the cornerstone of how tools
>>>> will cooperate, and I see Symphony supports this, so that's a good
>>>> sign.  Anyhow, building a team to work together to make sure everyone's
>>>> needs are being met is indeed my main purpose in starting this
>>>> discussion.  I could go off on my own and do what I think makes sense,
>>>> but it's pretty likely I'd mess up due to my own limited understanding
>>>> of the problem.
>>>> 
>>>> Dewald: absolutely, feel free to contact me offline (and that goes for
>>>> anyone else as well).  I'm very curious to read your thesis on the
>>>> different ways a blind musician might learn music from a score!
>>>> 
>>>> Kaiti: I don't know Dr. Rush, but I do know UNC (I'll actually be
>>>> teaching there myself this fall, filling in for someone on sabbatical).
>>>> Please feel free to forward any of this to Dr. Rush.  Do you know if he
>>>> was doing any of this work while at UNC, and if so, whether it was a
>>>> one-shot deal or if these methods became more widespread there?  I guess
>>>> I'll have the opportunity to find out for myself soon enough.  I'm quite
>>>> interested to hear about success stories as well as areas for
>>>> improvement.  Your description of the awkwardness of flipping back and
>>>> forth between a text document and something else for the notation is
>>>> *exactly* the sort of problem I think we can solve through the type of
>>>> tools I have in mind.  Imagine a program that read you the text of a
>>>> document but upon coming to a musical example, it automatically popped
>>>> you into Lime Aloud or some other program to read the example, or
>>>> activated a Braille display, or whatever.  And when it came to writing
>>>> in your answers for tests and so forth, what if the program
>>>> automatically popped your into an accessible editor where you could
>>>> complete the work, save the results directly back to the original file
>>>> at the proper place, and converted it to standard notation so it could
>>>> be printed and graded normally? This is the sort of thing I envision,
>>>> and it's really not even that difficult, really - just a matter of
>>>> writing the "glue" to help existing programs communicate better.
>>>> 
>>>> Rick: incorporating Braille symbols into mainstream texts does sound
>>>> like a good idea, and not just for music - for text as well.  What's odd
>>>> is that it is not uncommon for elementary students to learn the basics
>>>> of sign language, but not Braille. Although I guess it's easier to
>>>> actually *use* knowledge about sign language in conversation with a deaf
>>>> student than it is to use knowledge of Braille in conversation with a
>>>> blind person. Anyhow, you are right that getting the publishing industry
>>>> to change its ways is not going to be easy.  I don't expect all or most
>>>> books to magically start coming out this way.  But with the development
>>>> of tools to make this easier, and hopefully the demonstration that a
>>>> market exists, we could get at least some on board.
>>>> 
>>>> Overall comment: a big part of what I'm seeing is the need for a format
>>>> that mixes text and notation in an accessible way, and that allows the
>>>> reader to insert his or her own answers easily, whether in text or
>>>> notated format.  Here, I am using "notated" in a broad sense, including
>>>> the possibility of Braille, spoken score, ABC, etc.  If you're looking
>>>> for a single "thing" above and beyond an accessible version of MuseScore
>>>> to help understand what I am proposing, it is this new format.  An ebook
>>>> type of format with built in support for presentation of musical
>>>> examples in a variety of different accessible forms, and that allows for
>>>> annotations also in text or notation, so this can be used as way of
>>>> taking presenting and taking tests and so forth.  Now, I assume this is
>>>> not a completely new idea - something must exist already.  If nothing
>>>> else, books printed in Braille with musical examples also rendered in
>>>> Braille.  But I am talking about making it easier to create these, and
>>>> also easier to interact with them in ways other than just reading the
>>>> Braille.
>>>> 
>>>> Marc
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Brandon Keith Biggs
>>> 
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